UPDATED SEPT. 8: Your questions for Dr. Joseph Joyner -- and his answers

How will St. Johns county implement the new bill signed by Governor Crist on Physical Education?  I believe elementary school children will have 30 minutes of mandatory PE per day.  

Do you think St. Johns county children will benefit from this requirement? 

What is the percentage of students that are Exceptional Student Education (ESE) students?  Not gifted but, students with Individual Educational Plans (IEPs) that attend regular classrooms with services as needed/required, at Hickory, Timberlin, Julington, Durbin all elementary and even middle schools within St Johns County School District?  How I understand ESE there are different classifications, gifted programs, and other ESE programs at Cunningham and then the students in regular classrooms with IEPs and services or pull out.  And, full time ESE classrooms at SPMS or Cunningham and others.  How does that number compare to gifted?  My child is not gifted or full time ESE, but has an IEP with services.  I guess that means not a regular average student and this makes FCAT a confusing issue.  What is the success rate of those students?  The more information that can be published on this subject would be appreciated.  I was really happy with the teachers we met today. So I feel pretty good at the start.

Dr. Joyner,

my 2 youngest children attend Durbin Creek Elementary and at todays orientation we found out that the first grade house does not contain enough classrooms to accomodate 9 classes. Therefore a corner in the common area, which is used for entering each class, lining up for lunch, do special projects in etc.. is now being used as a so called "classroom" shielded by 2 temporary walls. I am downright disgusted with this scenario. We are segregating children by not offering them the same equal space they need to excel in their education and just dumping them into a common area, which is not designed to be a classroom. How did this concept get approval from the district??? The teachers are sugar coating the concept by saying they will pull out children from 2 adjacent classrooms and co-teach these classrooms, integrating this newly formed "classroom" into their schedule. I did not sign up for this type of teaching, nor was I asked if I would like my child to join in this co-teaching experience. I expect my child to receive the same instruction as the other children in this "house". I was not given the opportunity to agree to such a setting and I am expecting the school district to solve this problem asap. These are first graders for crying out loud, they need consistency and routine. My child does not need to be the guinea pig in this setting. I am paying the same amount of taxes as everyone else in our school and therefore I am expecting an equal opportunity to learn as the other children in first grade.If there are not enough classrooms in the first grade house than I expect a portable classroom to be installed, with the same amenities as the other classrooms and the structure of one teacher. Unfortunately as long as we keep approving new communities to be build in our area without the infrastracture of schools being planned for we will continue to run into these types of problems, St. Johns county is doing itself a disgrace by allowing such circumstances.

I am sure agree and I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Kind regards

Hello,

My questions involve gifted education.

Why aren't teachers certified with the gifted endorsement compensated for their continuing education to teach diverse, exceptional children?

Why does SJCSD not require guidance counselors and administrators and other faculty of full-time gifted schools to also complete training and certification in gifted education in order to better understand the needs and serve this population?

Why are principals of each school given authority and power to deny gifted programming/classes/services due to funding, or budgeting when a consistent policy throughout the district is what these children need, deserve and would give parents confidence that the mission statement is not just rhetoric, but applied and accountable?

Will SJCSD utilize programs from successful FL school districts that promote gifted student education, using National Asso. Gifted Children standards, practices, and current research?

When will SJCSD begin to educate schools, parents and students in regards to gifted education, talking openly and without prejudice as to the nature, needs and diverse qualities of these children?

60% of gifted children are also diagnosed with another exceptionality; such as ADD, Asperger's, or a physical handicap such as hearing impairment. The general population considers gifted education as elitist and view parents as bragging. While a few bad apples should not rot the barrel, it is imperative we focus on bringing gifted education into the mainstream.

Thank you for your time.

With the expansion and addition of elementary schools, will this enable the extended day program to be available to more students?

I understand the limitation as far as space but if the schools are being built to accommodate the students (more space, more teachers, etc.) couldn't this also be done to expand the program? Hire more aides? The waiting period to get into the program is several years for children that didn't start in the school in kindergarten.

My daughter has been on the waiting list for over a year and will probably not get into the program and this is her last year at Julington.

This was our first experience of not being able to use such a program. We moved down here over a year ago from up North, and it was available to all, no waiting list.

Thank you. 

My Child just came home from the first day of school at Timberlin Creek Elementary. Well, I heard it all, how crowded everything is from the bus, lunchroom the playground. My child said, it was difficult to do anything, just too many kids. This is my daughters third year at the school and it’s terrible. I’m sure Durbin Creek and other schools have similar issues. Extra classrooms are in most of all the common areas. I explained a new school is coming next year. She was very upset and wants to move away to another school. I told her it was the first day. But, I know I’m only trying to be positive for my child. I’m sure Timberlin Creek is over 1300 students, which is a school built for 700. There are 25 plus portables. When there is bad weather, wind, lightening the students from the portables have to come inside. There must be a fire code or some restriction about how many people can be inside a building at one time. The school was built with a lunchroom to service 700 students not 1300. The proper amount of restrooms for 700 students, not 1300 students. I realize portable classrooms have restrooms.

Oh, and the kindergartners were not at school today, I think they start Monday, so add more students on the bus and at school. It’s a good school, but you can only be so effective and so good with overcrowding. It’s not the school staff so much, it’s St Johns County that made this mess. Students are missing out. But, the staff needs to complain. Teachers must be going crazy. Think about that teachers in the common area conducting class. Maybe it’s an A schools for testing reasons, but that’s not good enough. It sounds like a D school, to me. Testing scores are great, whatever. But, I think this is a bigger issue. We all know the new school is coming. But, not soon enough and it will be overcrowded on day one.

Yes, I'm aware of the good thinks about our school and I discussed that with my child.

Dr.Joyner, 

     Isn’t it true that the reason Bartram and Nease received “B” grades this year is because one of the stipulations to be an A school is that the school must have at least half of their lowest 25 percent of students make adequate gains on the FCAT?  

     If I were a parent of one of the children in the lowest 25 percent, I would take issue with your comment when asked how you would fix the B grades at Bartram and Nease. 

 - “I don't worry about that. Something's wrong with the school grading system. Both schools got more points this year than they did last year and both schools dropped to a B from an A. Those are both A schools and you can take that to the bank. “ -  

     I agree with you that Bartram and Nease are fantastic schools. That’s one of the main reasons my family and I chose to live here.  I also understand that it’s just a small handful of children that need extra help.  

     So why couldn't your answer to that question have been ...

- “We are going to do everything we can to make sure that those kids that need extra help get it.” -

      A school must meet adequate yearly progress of their lowest students in reading and math. NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND

Physical Education:  submitted by: csgorham1 on Thursday 8/23 at 10:56am

The new physical education bill signed by Gov. Crist is being established into our elementary schools with each school implementing their own individual school plan.  Some schools are starting each morning with 30 minutes of school wide exercise, while others are receiving 150 minutes per week of physical education during P.E. class, in individual classrooms, and planned activities. 

ESE:  submitted by Josy on Thursday 8/23 at 2:18pm

Approximately 14% of the total student population of the St. Johns County School District is identified as having a disability under the federal regulations of the Individual with Disabilities Education Act of 2004. Across the state the average is as high as 27% in one school district and as low as 12 % in another.  The SJCSD is below the average range for the state in the identification of students with disabilities.  Approximately 4 % of the total student population of the district has been identified under Florida State Statutes as being eligible for Special Education services as gifted.  The gifted is in line with the overall state average for students identified as gifted. 

The disabilities, of the 14% of students in St. Johns County schools, range from mildly handicapped to severely and multiply handicapped, making the range of success for students identified as disabled, as a group, difficult to calculate.  Some students take FCAT that are disabled, with accommodations, and some of the more severely involved students take an alternative assessment instead of the FCAT.  When enacting IDEA 1997, Congress amended the statute to require school districts to address to the extent appropriate, for each child, the participation of that child in the general curriculum, as part of the student’s IEP program of special education, related services or supplementary aids and services.  No Child Left Behind (NCLB) further combined forces with IDEA by raising the expectations of the percentage of disabled required to take the FCAT and have a passing score or make adequately yearly progress (AYP).

I hope this information answers your questions, please do not hesitate to contact the Director for Exceptional Student Education, Lisa Bell or Senior Director for Curriculum and Instruction, Christy Chancey if you have any additional questions.

First Grade at Durbin Creek:  submitted by Nicole on Thursday, 8/23/07 at 8:24pm

The design of Durbin Creek Elementary is conducive to different and differing physical arrangements for learning to take place. The flexible walls and large common areas in each house are used for a variety of purposes. Hands-on Science demonstrations, cooking, indoor physical activity and small group instruction, that goes on continuously in the common areas in every house.

In the first grade house this year we have a group of 40 students who are being served by a team of 3 teachers. Two regular classroom spaces are being used and a section of the common area is also being used at set times in the day when the larger group is divided into three parts.  For lunch, resource and recess the group of students will be divided into 3 classes of 13, 13 and 14. 

This type of instruction allows the three teachers to provide specific individualized instruction for the students in their group. The state class size amendment is 18 students and we meet this amendment in all of our grade levels. The addition of 4 students and another teacher in first grade is allowing us to provide even more precision teaching to meet the needs of all learners while meeting the amendment. As the teachers' state – it is an exciting, dynamic, and innovative opportunity for us all.

Mrs. Falaney, the principal of Durbin Creek states that she would love to have had the opportunity to place her daughter in this environment. We also have two St. Johns County teacher's children in this environment and they are well pleased. The three first grade teachers are all experienced and know the curriculum and what needs to happen to have students achieve to their maximum potential.

B Schools:  submitted by TCEMOM on Saturday 8/25/07 at 6:12pm

Thank you very much for your input in regards to Nease and Bartram Trail.  If you would like to discuss this further, please call me at my office (819-7502).

There was not a specified time for response to the remaining questions posed to Dr. Joyner. Will the St John's Sun follow up on the need for further response? When will those responses be printed?

Response to:  Overcrowded schools – TCE  Submitted by Josy on Friday, 8/24/07 – 4:26pm

Thank you for your concerns expressed about Timberlin Creek Elementary on Friday, August 24, the first day of school.  On behalf of Timberlin Creek, I am sure what your daughter experienced her first day of school could have been a little overwhelming from the bus, to the lunchroom and the playground.  Being it was the first day of school; I know Mrs. Hutchins, the Principal, is working through these areas to assure that her students attending her school don't feel the numbers they are experiencing. Class sizes are within the class size average at her school and I do know that bus schedules are being adjusted as of this Friday to eliminate some of the crowding your daughter may be feeling. The lunch room schedule is also being monitored to assure students are getting their lunch in ample time and have the proper amount of time to eat. In addition, the playground schedule is currently being developed so there are only 4 classes out on either playground (primary and intermediate) at any given time. This will change next week when teachers will meet the new PE law that has been put in place. I would ask for your patience being that we are only in our first week of school as Mrs. Hutchins works through scheduling to assure a balance in all areas of her school.

I appreciate your being positive with your child as you address her concerns. You are right, the school is a little over 1300 students but the facility is adequate to meet the growing numbers. There is bathroom access in every classroom in the school, including the portables. In addition there are 3 additional locations around the school for students to access restrooms as needed. One of the large restroom facilities is right outside the cafeteria doors.

I also want to assure you that Mrs. Hutchins takes every precaution regarding the weather and has a plan for bringing in students inside the building during inclement weather to assure their safety. She has two weather radios that operate 24/7.

Mrs. Hutchins has also been monitoring the buses this week as Kindergarten students use the staggered enrollment schedule. Transportation has been responsive to Timberlin Creek's needs and has adjusted bus routes which can be found on the Timberlin Creek website at www.tce-stjohns.k12.fl.us

You are correct in saying that it is a good school. It continues to meet class size average and Mrs. Hutchins continues to hire highly qualified teachers for her school. She continually sees that her students have just as much as any other school when it comes to resource classes. Her resource schedule includes 4 full time PE teachers, 2 full time music teachers, two full time art teachers, 1 drama teacher and access to the school's media center throughout any given day.

The school has made the most of their commons areas. A small portion of the two primary houses have reading centers for 3 classrooms at the ends while there is only one small intermediate classroom in the commons area in the intermediate house. This particular classroom teams with 4 other 5th grade classrooms to best meet the needs of all the 5th grade students in this intermediate house.

You are correct in that the new K-8 school will be opened next August. This will reduce the numbers at Timberlin Creek. Know that in the mean time, Timberlin Creek continues to be a high performing school where Mrs. Hutchins puts the needs of her students first. I encourage you to contact her to share any of your concerns. She has an open door policy and would welcome you to come and view the schedules and see how creative she has been with a school's design.

Thank you once again for being positive with your child about her school. It is a great school that continues to do very well with the growth that the 210 corridor brings.  St. Johns County has great schools and it appears that everyone is moving into our county to experience our great schools.

Response to:

Extended day programs  Submitted by Vernreturns on Friday 8/24/07 – 10:09 am

This BLOG contained many specific questions.  Please see each question and response below:

With the expansion and addition of elementary schools, will this enable the extended day program to be available to more students?

Answer:  The expansion and addition of elementary schools have little or no effect on the Extended Day Program.  The Extended Day Program is financially self run and is based on the number of students an individual school can accommodate based upon the facility, number of staff, and structure of the school's program.

I understand the limitation as far as space but if the schools are being built to accommodate the students (more space, more teachers, etc.) couldn't this also be done to expand the program? Hire more aides? The waiting period to get into the program is several years for children that didn't start in the school in kindergarten.

Answer:  Schools are built to accommodate students during the school day.  The Extended Day Program is an additional program that individual schools choose to offer.  It has limitations which may include staff, facilities, supplies, and budget.  Expanding a particular Extended Day Program is entirely up to the school.  The schools have the right to limit the number of students based upon the Extended Day philosophy and goals.

My daughter has been on the waiting list for over a year and will probably not get into the program and this is her last year at Julington.

Answer:  The enrollment is determined by the school, and is based upon the number of staff member that are part of the program.  I would suggest that you contact the Extended Day coordinator to have this question answered very specifically.

This was our first experience of not being able to use such a program. We moved down here over a year ago from up North, and it was available to all, no waiting list.

Please be assured we do our very best to meet the needs of every student in our district and their families.

How very diappointing to wait patiently for two weeks to only to find EVERYONE else's questions were responded to by Dr. Joyner.

This simply illustrates the SJCSD does not hold advanced learners and gifted children to the priorty level they deserve.

SJCSD does not pay their gifted endorsed teachers any differently than professional certified teachers. These teachers take additional 300 hours, in 5 courses and an exam to have the gifted endorsement.

Our district refuses out-of-grade-level testing citinng state policy. Yet, the FLDOE supports and advocates acceleration. SJCSD does not have full-time gifted classrooms for K-2 students, even though the state mandates identification as early as Kindergarten. Ask any guidance counselor about testing a 5 or 6 yr old and the first thing they'll tell you is to WAIT, citing maturity and social concerns. Current research proves that the children will thrive when being taught to their ability. While the district does offer pull-out for students identified, these children are still being short-changed. ONE HOUR, ONCE A WEEK is not gifted education, it is enrichment.

There are 4 elementary and 4 middle schools with the PACE program in our district. Only 2 of them have a webpage with information regarding the PACE program. The SJCSD webpage for gifted education contains a limited amount of information. No discussion on district practices - each school does the program their very own way. This aligns with how the principal of each school feels about advanced learners/gifted children and education practices.

Parents are getting mixed messages from the establishment that is supposed to assist them in "best practices" for educating their kids. FAPE is applicable to all children!

There are several districts in our state that have programs that address both advanced learners and gifted children. SJCSD needs to move into the 21st century. LISTEN to parents, teachers and administration. Put the ideas into ACTION. Others already have SUCCESSFULLY.

Finally, to ALL parents and professionals who "GET" it ~ THANK-YOU for working so hard.

Below is the final response to your questions, but Superintendent Joyner says he continues to welcome queries from the public, and asks that if you have questions you call him at his office.

Submitted by blondee on Fri, 08/24/2007 - 9:39am.

Hello,

My questions involve gifted education.

Why aren't teachers certified with the gifted endorsement compensated for their continuing education to teach diverse, exceptional children?It is the teacher's choice to pursue the gifted endorsement based on their interest in teaching these exceptional students.  Many teachers attend the gifted modules simply for professional development. They  learn skills for differentiating for the high level students in mixed abilities classrooms.

Why does SJCSD not require guidance counselors and administrators and other faculty of full-time gifted schools to also complete training and certification in gifted education in order to better understand the needs and serve this population? All elementary school personnel have received inservice training about the nature and needs of the gifted child.  The middle school cluster sites will receive inservice training this academic year.  Since the  gifted endorsement is 300 hours of course work, it would be difficult to have all personnel fully endorsed.

Why are principals of each school given authority and power to deny gifted programming/classes/services due to funding, or budgeting when a consistent policy throughout the district is what these children need, deserve and would give parents confidence that the mission statement is not just rhetoric, but applied and accountable? Gifted delivery service models are mandated by Tallahassee.  The majority of students, identified as gifted, need services in all academic areas.  However, there are some situations where the child is not gifted in a particular area, so his/her educational plan is written according to the child's need.  We are very fortunate in St. Johns County to offer fulltime services at cluster sites for elementary and middle school students.  Most counties  provide gifted services only through a one-day per week pull-out resource class.

Will SJCSD utilize programs from successful FL school districts that promote gifted student education, using National Asso. Gifted Children standards, practices, and current research?Our county is currently using research based curriculum, designed for the gifted child. For the past two summers, the elementary teachers for gifted education have attended multi-day trainings in the use of these materials.  The ESE department, along with the Curriculum department, do an excellent job of being knowledgeable in the best practices for educating our children.

When will SJCSD begin to educate schools, parents and students in regards to gifted education, talking openly and without prejudice as to the nature, needs and diverse qualities of these children?It is difficult to answer this question since these activities are already taking place in our district.  The gifted advisory committee meets quarterly, and this would be an excellent venue for you to express your concerns and get answers to your questions.  You can find a schedule of future meetings and minutes from past meetings on the county web site.

60% of gifted children are also diagnosed with another exceptionality; such as ADD, Asperger's, or a physical handicap such as hearing impairment. The general population considers gifted education as elitist and view parents as bragging. While a few bad apples should not rot the barrel, it is imperative we focus on bringing gifted education into the mainstream.

Thank you for your time.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions. I respectfully respond,

1. Teachers are required by the State to have a Gifted Endorsement to teach in all 5 Service Delivery Models: Co-teaching, Support facilitation, Content-mastery or learning lab("limited pull-out"), Consultation, Resource room or self-contained. These teachers should be compensated appropriately, in my humble opinion.

2. Thank-you for providing inservice training to all elem and now to middle school personnel as well. Guidance counselors, Principals, Deans, Asst Principals & Deans should be endorsed if their school is a cluster site. These members of the schools have decision-making power to allow gifted students to dual-enroll, take virtual courses, etc and need to be more than familiar with natures & needs.

3. You are correct in stating that we are fortunate to have full-time classes in St. Johns county. While FLDOE clearly defines the procedures for identifying gifted students and the requirements for teachers to be certified, they do not clearly define what a school districts gifted program should look like. FLDOE defines what a gifted program should do, but doesnt specify what schools should have at each school. This is left to the district to decide, then each school. The district also controls how funding for the gifted program is utilized, which then goes to each Principal.

4. While I agree the district utilizes training for our teachers in curriculum, I disagree that the district supports schools & teachers with on-going information sharing on social/emotional needs, practices in acceleration, and ability grouping children who are not identified as gifted that are high-achievers. Regular ed teachers continue to tell parents they are unable to differentiate, counselors who are reluctant to inform parents of the Iowa Acceleration Scale, and personnel are not encouraged to refer young students for screening.

5. Thank you for pointing me to the Gifted Advisory Committee. Where is this advertised to parents, teachers, & schools as taking place?

Being relatively new to this county, I appreciate all the information I am being given. I have met many parents actively involved in their local schools and have been impressed by the number of parents and professionals who continue to give above and beyond for their children and students.

How schools have changed...I visited my kid's school and I wanted to see the restrooms as well. I was surprised to see so much technology and such clean places. I remember the bathroom sink in my school, all rusty and dirty all the time....